Sure thing bud. Not everyone is comfortable being wet, cold and having the sh*t kicked out of them for days on end but sure, judge them all you want from your armchair…
I’ve been caught offshore in storms twice - once in 1984 and then in 2012. The 2012 was 4 days of gale force winds and 20’ seas crossing from Key West to Cartagena. So I’ve been out there and know what it’s like. It’s not fun, but abandoning my boat and chickening out was not going to happen.
Good for you. I got flattened in southern Biscay with a Force 8 / approaching 9 and considerable seas that was very uncomfortable for a couple of days in our old steel ketch. We had no option but to ride it out but I’d not have criticised someone for bailing.
Sinking, mechanical breakdown, medical emergency, fire on board, etc. are all valid reasons for calling for rescue. Being uncomfortable is not. Rescue operations are inherently dangerous for both the crew and the rescuers and to put lives at risk just because you’re uncomfortable seems like the epitome of selfishness. It must be nice to be rich enough to just discard an expensive boat without a second thought, though.
You’re making a heck of a lot of assumptions from the little known info there is about this.
Did the guy have insurance or did he just have to make the decision to cast his home adrift? Not many folks plan a 7 year circumnavigation lightly and a 19 year old Bene isn’t exactly a “rich” man’s boat.
There’s also “uncomfortable” and “vomiting all night in the pitch black, wind howling, boat pounding into heavy seas, not sleeping for countless hours uncomfortable”. Again, the USCG has said there were no visible injuries, but that doesn’t account for the mental state the crew were in when removed from the boat.
The only benefit to the entire situation is both rescuers and crew came away physically fine.
Did you read the article? Conditions had significantly improved by the time the USCG arrived. Doesn’t mean the crew were in a fit state to continue at that point in time.
NP, let me tell you, EPIRBs and radios have been around since the 1970s.
It used to be a philosophical point of conversation among skippers and crews if taking an EPIRP on a pleasure boat was ethical at all. You're not out there on a merchant ship, or a fishing boat, earning a living and bringing products to market. You're out there for the hell of it. A dilettante by definition.
So when it gets a little rough, you just want to punch the EPIRB? "Send the Coast Guard! Help me, Mr. Wizard! It's rougher than I thought it would be!"
Good grief.
Do you put a sweater on your miniature labradoodle when it gets under 50*?
Not a surprising comment from someone like yourself.. and then the gay reference at the end? How clever and witty.
Just because you’ve been to warzones, doesn’t mean everyone else has such a gung ho attitude. You aren’t aware of the conditions aboard before the USCG arrived but you’re going to criticise those guys who were. But gee, thanks for the history lesson…
Really the only pathetic thing here is you trying to compare your superman attitude to a real-world situation that - again - you weren’t there for and are just theorizing about.
Looking at the pictures, my 1978 Pearson P-31 has been in worse. Granted the Oceanis has a CF of of 2.085, but that is only marginally worse than 1.98. They should have called ahead to arrange a salvage crew.
I still stick with the old adage, "You don't get in your life raft until you have to step UP into it."
Fires (mostly from electrics) and collisions scare me the most. Wind and waves don't.
Hurricanes will take out any vessel, up to El Faro (containership) which is why we don't sail in hurricane season in hurricane alley. But square waves (wind vs current) are part of the game. Gulf Stream, running an inlet, Papagayo, Tehuantepecer, etc. Part of the game. If you have sea room, you can deal with it. Sure sure can't bash into it on a sailboat. Not a 30 footer and not a 60 footer. If you DON'T have sea room, well, good luck and God bless. But it's all part of the offshore sailing game.
Very interesting. It is unfortunate that the skipper is thus far unresponsive. I would like to learn from his experience. I remember, many years ago, during a short stopover in Newport, my friend letting me off (we were moving the boat, a small (24-ft), lightweight racer from New Bedford to New London) after I was (I felt) hopelessly seasick for really not very long- perhaps 3 hours. I am still embarrassed by that. Somehow the motion of that featherweight boat, bobbing around to windward, the teeny outboard blurbing in and out of the water, took me totally out. And, I was really young, and had not yet learned how to deal with seasickness nor the importance of my commitment.
That 523 is very light, D/L of 125, compared even to a J40 I helped deliver from Nantucket to Annapolis in late June, during which we experienced the usual sloppy SW conditions, T-stms, plugged fuel filters, failed alternator, yatayata, including me again seasick. (I really didn't care, then and don't care, now, having decided that I want to be out there more than anything else; I just constantly drink water, and am pretty much able to sustain that until I get acclimated- and that trip is way too short, for me, anyhow). I don't know what being in confused seas is like on a boat as light as that Beneteau, with a 16-ft beam, and I think I would rather not know. The incessant pounding and jerking on that J40 was enough to convince me that if I could possibly fall off I would. Note: that boat made it prior outbound to Nantucket, after tons of Chesapeake activities, clearly not rough enough to dislodge tank contaminants- maybe the return trip was the worst that boat had seen. But, my captain carried on, which was his decision - which may have been the best choice; I was not privy to his planning. And, we got through it. It is interesting to speculate how varied was this skipper's experience on that 523- you'd think that he'd been through so much on that boat during all those passages that he could have cheered his crew to hang until the front passed, explaining that he expects it to be awful, but as awful as it was, it was all going to be ok. I wonder if that boat would heave-to nicely. Again, dunno. It sure would be nice if he shared. I have a neighbor who lost his boat off the New Jersey coast, and will not share his experience, despite my dinner bribes.
Point: Unless you really love the ocean, love the boat (key for me), and have good vibes with the captain/crew, the entire experience can be tortuous, and the extreme motion of a boat (in actual nautical conditions) can be the last straw, especially if the experience is new and scary on an unfamiliar (and very lively) boat. If I were single-handing it (much outside my comfort/experience zone) I may have viewed it as an interesting challenge, since I would not have anxiety regarding risk to other souls' . Dunno. I do remember being crew during a number of Bermuda 1-2 events in a Tartan 33, and swore I would never go to sea in a boat inside which I would routinely hit my head on a rapidly falling ceiling as the boat fell faster than I did (I still wonder how that is possible). That didn't last long: we broke the rudder completely off and had to limp back to Bermuda, opposing the weather's direction, so those moderate/mild ocean conditions responsible for the breakage of that ridiculously designed rudder had passed. He got dismasted in similar conditions on the next race- another story/example regarding a mismatch of design to mission.
No, I cannot judge. I can honestly get how enough can be enough.
I mostly single hand a much smaller boat, having a 148% greater D/L, and still managed to get seasick, three times actually, during a short solo (35-nm) passage about 1 month ago. I was so happy on that lively ocean I just didn't care. Fun fact: Despite a really big meal at anchor at 8 pm prior, by 9am, partway home, I barfed only water (I had .5 liter at 830pm, and .5 liter at ~0600), and drank ~.4 liter after each, er, "offload". Non events.
I am glad these guys are ok.
Final note: A guy named David recently lost his Beneteau yacht, a 50.4 I think (see "Sailing Solo at 70"), due to a design of the rudder support structure which can only be described as, well, unbelievable. Judge for yourselves, but if I owned a Beneteau I would absolutely not leave the dock until I confirmed this does not apply to my boat. You will not believe what he describes. I suggested (we corresponded) perhaps his boat was unfinished; he stated others, via a forum, confirmed theirs as similar. If that applies to you, do not, repeat, do not ignore it. -- PM
We have done this route many times over the last decade in a similar sized boat. This was a wreck of a passage plan. So many bad decisions.
One additional thing that wasn't mentioned above , the route they sailed took them right out into the middle of the Gulf Stream! WHY??? Not only does it set you to the north at 2.5 to 3.5 knots here, but after the front passes, and the wind clocks to the north you are left with a 20+ knot wind straight against the strong current. Even if the waves were 10 feet or less, they would have been extremely steep and close together. Not at all a situation tenable for a light weight, flat bottomed boat like this.
The frequency of these abandonment of a still-seaworthy vessel, often during the least appropriate seasons for making such passages, along the US East Coast's epic rescue safety net, is exhausting. If this vessel were in the south Atlantic, where few such rescue assets are available, I suspect they would have soldiered on, made it to port, and had some good sea stories to tell for years to come.
Speaking of abandoning ship, Peter have you looked into this, why did this reportedly new vessel sink?
Hatteras to Charleston was one of the "memorable" legs of our 3 year sailing sabbatical through the Caribbean, and the only time my wife ever said she wanted off the boat. It can definately be a mixing pot of weather and current and you have to be careful in this area.
That's called ocean sailing. Your wife only said she wanted off the boat. Any sane human would think the same. But you soldiered on. Each storm or situation toughens you for the next. The last "near disaster" becomes the next "We can handle it."
So what happens to the abandoned vessel? Could/would anyone that happens unpon it salvage it? Is it really SOP to scuttle an abandoned vessel? I'm more interested in the boat than the people. Also, this seems like a flagrant viloation of USCG paid passenger rules and required licensing. I know there's an exception for "splitting costs" but this doesn't seem to fall within those parameters, with an advertised price. Peter, I think a follow-up article will be read with gusto!
As a practical matter, I don't see a helicopter and a rescue swimmer scuttling a vessel. Coast Guard boats have been known to do that occassionally, but even during Cuban rafting crises, they often let the abandoned rafts float along the Gulf Stream. I agree that the Austrian dude would appear to be violating U.S. rules. Let me consult my rules expert.
Having single-handed down or back from New England to Miami 8 times between my age at 58 to 77, this is beyond strange. Going south is more challenging in terms of route, as one either goes between the stream and the land, so lots of small boat traffic, or goes straight through the stream to be to the East of it so that it is not an issue. From the track of this boat, it appears they tried to go south into the stream. Not very smart...and I am being charitable.
I don't know of a case where this has happened. In The Perfect Storm, the captain lost the argument with his two crew and let himself be evacuated. Later, he recovered the boat, I think. As a practical matter, I don't think a lone rescue swimmer could force someone to abandon his boat.
I’m a big fan of the 524 Clipper. Have looked at a couple of thinking of buying one to go cruising. There is a FB page dedicated to this model, and it cruises all over the world. Presuming it didn’t suffer heel bolt, rudder or rigging failure, it’s a very capable cruiser. It does seem strange to abandon? I’d like to see the skippers experience? 64 is not necessarily a problem if you’re fit and experienced.
They need to turn in their Man cards.
Sure thing bud. Not everyone is comfortable being wet, cold and having the sh*t kicked out of them for days on end but sure, judge them all you want from your armchair…
I’ve been caught offshore in storms twice - once in 1984 and then in 2012. The 2012 was 4 days of gale force winds and 20’ seas crossing from Key West to Cartagena. So I’ve been out there and know what it’s like. It’s not fun, but abandoning my boat and chickening out was not going to happen.
Good for you. I got flattened in southern Biscay with a Force 8 / approaching 9 and considerable seas that was very uncomfortable for a couple of days in our old steel ketch. We had no option but to ride it out but I’d not have criticised someone for bailing.
Sinking, mechanical breakdown, medical emergency, fire on board, etc. are all valid reasons for calling for rescue. Being uncomfortable is not. Rescue operations are inherently dangerous for both the crew and the rescuers and to put lives at risk just because you’re uncomfortable seems like the epitome of selfishness. It must be nice to be rich enough to just discard an expensive boat without a second thought, though.
You’re making a heck of a lot of assumptions from the little known info there is about this.
Did the guy have insurance or did he just have to make the decision to cast his home adrift? Not many folks plan a 7 year circumnavigation lightly and a 19 year old Bene isn’t exactly a “rich” man’s boat.
There’s also “uncomfortable” and “vomiting all night in the pitch black, wind howling, boat pounding into heavy seas, not sleeping for countless hours uncomfortable”. Again, the USCG has said there were no visible injuries, but that doesn’t account for the mental state the crew were in when removed from the boat.
The only benefit to the entire situation is both rescuers and crew came away physically fine.
No Force 8 in the picture.
Did you read the article? Conditions had significantly improved by the time the USCG arrived. Doesn’t mean the crew were in a fit state to continue at that point in time.
Oh, geez. "Judge them from your armchair."
NP, let me tell you, EPIRBs and radios have been around since the 1970s.
It used to be a philosophical point of conversation among skippers and crews if taking an EPIRP on a pleasure boat was ethical at all. You're not out there on a merchant ship, or a fishing boat, earning a living and bringing products to market. You're out there for the hell of it. A dilettante by definition.
So when it gets a little rough, you just want to punch the EPIRB? "Send the Coast Guard! Help me, Mr. Wizard! It's rougher than I thought it would be!"
Good grief.
Do you put a sweater on your miniature labradoodle when it gets under 50*?
Not a surprising comment from someone like yourself.. and then the gay reference at the end? How clever and witty.
Just because you’ve been to warzones, doesn’t mean everyone else has such a gung ho attitude. You aren’t aware of the conditions aboard before the USCG arrived but you’re going to criticise those guys who were. But gee, thanks for the history lesson…
Sure. You get a flat tire on the highway? CALL 911! RUN AWAY! Wait for rescue! Sheesh. Stop digging. It's pathetic.
Concur Matt & nice to see you on this Sub.
- Having been an avid ocean sailor/delivery captain in my past life - this is unthinkable...
-and most likely due to an angry paid passenger(s) and a worn-out skipper methinks (?)
PS. big fan of your books, own 'em all!
-your Florida neighbor in western Marion county
Yep, that comparison makes sense. Loads of it.
Really the only pathetic thing here is you trying to compare your superman attitude to a real-world situation that - again - you weren’t there for and are just theorizing about.
Looking at the pictures, my 1978 Pearson P-31 has been in worse. Granted the Oceanis has a CF of of 2.085, but that is only marginally worse than 1.98. They should have called ahead to arrange a salvage crew.
What pu$$ies. They can't turn in their man cards: they never had any!
The boat was happy to see them go. The boat was ashamed of them.
(Yes, even plastic ocean-going sailboats have souls. More than a lot of people I know.)
And yes, I've been in Much MUCH worse conditions than that. Lots of times. Solo and with crew.
I never considered punching the EPIRB. I always knew the boat could take more than I could.
Even if rolled and dismasted, I knew the boat would float.
I hope the boat gets better owners next time.
I still stick with the old adage, "You don't get in your life raft until you have to step UP into it."
Fires (mostly from electrics) and collisions scare me the most. Wind and waves don't.
Hurricanes will take out any vessel, up to El Faro (containership) which is why we don't sail in hurricane season in hurricane alley. But square waves (wind vs current) are part of the game. Gulf Stream, running an inlet, Papagayo, Tehuantepecer, etc. Part of the game. If you have sea room, you can deal with it. Sure sure can't bash into it on a sailboat. Not a 30 footer and not a 60 footer. If you DON'T have sea room, well, good luck and God bless. But it's all part of the offshore sailing game.
I could've written this myself
And ANOTHER hazard to navigation. Hope someone salvages it.
Very interesting. It is unfortunate that the skipper is thus far unresponsive. I would like to learn from his experience. I remember, many years ago, during a short stopover in Newport, my friend letting me off (we were moving the boat, a small (24-ft), lightweight racer from New Bedford to New London) after I was (I felt) hopelessly seasick for really not very long- perhaps 3 hours. I am still embarrassed by that. Somehow the motion of that featherweight boat, bobbing around to windward, the teeny outboard blurbing in and out of the water, took me totally out. And, I was really young, and had not yet learned how to deal with seasickness nor the importance of my commitment.
That 523 is very light, D/L of 125, compared even to a J40 I helped deliver from Nantucket to Annapolis in late June, during which we experienced the usual sloppy SW conditions, T-stms, plugged fuel filters, failed alternator, yatayata, including me again seasick. (I really didn't care, then and don't care, now, having decided that I want to be out there more than anything else; I just constantly drink water, and am pretty much able to sustain that until I get acclimated- and that trip is way too short, for me, anyhow). I don't know what being in confused seas is like on a boat as light as that Beneteau, with a 16-ft beam, and I think I would rather not know. The incessant pounding and jerking on that J40 was enough to convince me that if I could possibly fall off I would. Note: that boat made it prior outbound to Nantucket, after tons of Chesapeake activities, clearly not rough enough to dislodge tank contaminants- maybe the return trip was the worst that boat had seen. But, my captain carried on, which was his decision - which may have been the best choice; I was not privy to his planning. And, we got through it. It is interesting to speculate how varied was this skipper's experience on that 523- you'd think that he'd been through so much on that boat during all those passages that he could have cheered his crew to hang until the front passed, explaining that he expects it to be awful, but as awful as it was, it was all going to be ok. I wonder if that boat would heave-to nicely. Again, dunno. It sure would be nice if he shared. I have a neighbor who lost his boat off the New Jersey coast, and will not share his experience, despite my dinner bribes.
Point: Unless you really love the ocean, love the boat (key for me), and have good vibes with the captain/crew, the entire experience can be tortuous, and the extreme motion of a boat (in actual nautical conditions) can be the last straw, especially if the experience is new and scary on an unfamiliar (and very lively) boat. If I were single-handing it (much outside my comfort/experience zone) I may have viewed it as an interesting challenge, since I would not have anxiety regarding risk to other souls' . Dunno. I do remember being crew during a number of Bermuda 1-2 events in a Tartan 33, and swore I would never go to sea in a boat inside which I would routinely hit my head on a rapidly falling ceiling as the boat fell faster than I did (I still wonder how that is possible). That didn't last long: we broke the rudder completely off and had to limp back to Bermuda, opposing the weather's direction, so those moderate/mild ocean conditions responsible for the breakage of that ridiculously designed rudder had passed. He got dismasted in similar conditions on the next race- another story/example regarding a mismatch of design to mission.
No, I cannot judge. I can honestly get how enough can be enough.
I mostly single hand a much smaller boat, having a 148% greater D/L, and still managed to get seasick, three times actually, during a short solo (35-nm) passage about 1 month ago. I was so happy on that lively ocean I just didn't care. Fun fact: Despite a really big meal at anchor at 8 pm prior, by 9am, partway home, I barfed only water (I had .5 liter at 830pm, and .5 liter at ~0600), and drank ~.4 liter after each, er, "offload". Non events.
I am glad these guys are ok.
Final note: A guy named David recently lost his Beneteau yacht, a 50.4 I think (see "Sailing Solo at 70"), due to a design of the rudder support structure which can only be described as, well, unbelievable. Judge for yourselves, but if I owned a Beneteau I would absolutely not leave the dock until I confirmed this does not apply to my boat. You will not believe what he describes. I suggested (we corresponded) perhaps his boat was unfinished; he stated others, via a forum, confirmed theirs as similar. If that applies to you, do not, repeat, do not ignore it. -- PM
We have done this route many times over the last decade in a similar sized boat. This was a wreck of a passage plan. So many bad decisions.
One additional thing that wasn't mentioned above , the route they sailed took them right out into the middle of the Gulf Stream! WHY??? Not only does it set you to the north at 2.5 to 3.5 knots here, but after the front passes, and the wind clocks to the north you are left with a 20+ knot wind straight against the strong current. Even if the waves were 10 feet or less, they would have been extremely steep and close together. Not at all a situation tenable for a light weight, flat bottomed boat like this.
Square waves are not fun. Been there, done that. If you have sea room, (they did), you change course and vow to plan better next time.
He might've read one 1 book: Cornell: World Cruising Routes
Extra credit: Coast Pilot
The frequency of these abandonment of a still-seaworthy vessel, often during the least appropriate seasons for making such passages, along the US East Coast's epic rescue safety net, is exhausting. If this vessel were in the south Atlantic, where few such rescue assets are available, I suspect they would have soldiered on, made it to port, and had some good sea stories to tell for years to come.
Speaking of abandoning ship, Peter have you looked into this, why did this reportedly new vessel sink?
https://www.wwaytv3.com/u-s-coast-guard-recuses-six-people-off-of-oak-island/?
Good point about the Souther Ocean
Hatteras to Charleston was one of the "memorable" legs of our 3 year sailing sabbatical through the Caribbean, and the only time my wife ever said she wanted off the boat. It can definately be a mixing pot of weather and current and you have to be careful in this area.
That's called ocean sailing. Your wife only said she wanted off the boat. Any sane human would think the same. But you soldiered on. Each storm or situation toughens you for the next. The last "near disaster" becomes the next "We can handle it."
Lock her up tight, try to follow where she goes and jump back on board once things calm down.
An increasingly common 1st World mindset, where any adverse situation faced is easily remedied by calling in the authorities to save your skin.
So what happens to the abandoned vessel? Could/would anyone that happens unpon it salvage it? Is it really SOP to scuttle an abandoned vessel? I'm more interested in the boat than the people. Also, this seems like a flagrant viloation of USCG paid passenger rules and required licensing. I know there's an exception for "splitting costs" but this doesn't seem to fall within those parameters, with an advertised price. Peter, I think a follow-up article will be read with gusto!
As a practical matter, I don't see a helicopter and a rescue swimmer scuttling a vessel. Coast Guard boats have been known to do that occassionally, but even during Cuban rafting crises, they often let the abandoned rafts float along the Gulf Stream. I agree that the Austrian dude would appear to be violating U.S. rules. Let me consult my rules expert.
What violated US rules are you referring to?
Would the 200 NM EEZone enter into the discussion for this incident at all?
Having single-handed down or back from New England to Miami 8 times between my age at 58 to 77, this is beyond strange. Going south is more challenging in terms of route, as one either goes between the stream and the land, so lots of small boat traffic, or goes straight through the stream to be to the East of it so that it is not an issue. From the track of this boat, it appears they tried to go south into the stream. Not very smart...and I am being charitable.
If the captain had decided to wait it out could he even if his 2 crew wanted out? What are the rules?
If the captain had decided to wait it out could he even if his 2 crew wanted out? What are the rules?
I don't know of a case where this has happened. In The Perfect Storm, the captain lost the argument with his two crew and let himself be evacuated. Later, he recovered the boat, I think. As a practical matter, I don't think a lone rescue swimmer could force someone to abandon his boat.
Not sure how else to get a message to Peter...
Thoughts for another article ???
The wealthy sailors that find any reason not to pay , often denying honest workers a reasonable take home pay.
Send me an email. Petercswanson@gmail.com
Did Practical Sailor lift this entire story from this article basically word for word without attribution? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0tvX3YzHsY
Apparently so.
I’m a big fan of the 524 Clipper. Have looked at a couple of thinking of buying one to go cruising. There is a FB page dedicated to this model, and it cruises all over the world. Presuming it didn’t suffer heel bolt, rudder or rigging failure, it’s a very capable cruiser. It does seem strange to abandon? I’d like to see the skippers experience? 64 is not necessarily a problem if you’re fit and experienced.